UPDATE: I’ve done a new animation which is essentially a zoom of only the seal which allows finer details to be seen. It’s available at the end of this post below the link for the full size version.
Claim: The embossed seal size on the Obama COLB is smaller than the embossed seal on the Michele COLB.
Over on TexasDarlin, reader El seems to feel that the embossed seal on the Obama COLB is smaller than that of the Michele COLB. El posts a three image panel over at Photobucket which shows the Obama seal in the middle.
It’s not a very good image for comparative purposes as the Obama seal is not only offset from the reference seals, but the panel with the Obama seal actually cuts off a portion of the bottom of the seal, though this isn’t immediately obvious.
So to get a more definitive answer, I borrowed the edge-detected image posted on Polarik’s blog which gives the best image of the Obama seal I have seen to date.
I then flipped the image to negative so that the seal image appears dark on light.
Then I borrowed this image, also from Polarik’s blog, of the Michele COLB which has had the seal embossing enhanced with a little pencil lead.
I cropped out the upper portion of the image and converted it to grayscale.
Next I set the Michele COLB’s image to 50% transparency and aligned it to match up the border, printed seal, and text elements of the edge-detected Obama COLB.
The embossed seals aren’t in the exact same location on both COLBs so once everything had been aligned and checked, I then shifted the Michele COLB to line its embossed seal up with the Obama embossed seal, going back and forth with the transparency slider and tweaking the location to get the most precise overlay.
The two embossed seals are identical in size.
I produced a simple animated GIF to provide an illustration you can see for yourself. It was made by progressing the transparency of the Michele COLB from fully transparent to fully opaque in 20% increments.
It’s available here: sealsize.gif
The zoomed version is available here: sealsizezoom.gif
k
Koyaan's Weblog 
17 comments
Comments feed for this article
July 18, 2008 at 10:33 pm
rayinaus
koyan,
I’ve been following your comments on Texasdarlin’s blog and noticed that you’ve been doing some remarkably good work.
Yesterday i wrote to the TD blog saying taht the seals are 1.6 inches in diameter instead of the official 2.5 inches. I also said taht instead of arguing about whether the green background and borders were pre-printed or not, that they simply look at Michele’s certificate.
Ray
July 18, 2008 at 10:50 pm
rayinaus
koyan,
I did a comparison between the KOS version and the Factcheck version and noticed that there are more white/light coloured artifacts around the text in the Factcheck version – even though we would normally expect to see a further-compressed version like KOS’s having more.
It wasn’t a thorough comparison, but it might be worth following up.
What I did was put a small section of identical text together on the one document and then select the lightest coloured pixels I could find (with the magic wand set as 2) and then change their colour to red. This was repeated many times, but the Factcheck version always had more RED pixels.
Ray
July 19, 2008 at 12:22 am
koyaan
Hey Ray! Welcome aboard!
I’ve been following your comments on Texasdarlin’s blog and noticed that you’ve been doing some remarkably good work.
Thank you for the kind words. Though I think my posting days are over there. The moderating is just too schizophrenic. I’m under moderation, and then I’m not. And then I am. And then I’m not. Doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. I’m not going to spend a fair amount of time writing a comment only for there to be a decent chance it’ll never be posted.
Here I can say what I want to say, and just as importantly let others have their say as well.
Anyway…
Yesterday i wrote to the TD blog saying taht the seals are 1.6 inches in diameter instead of the official 2.5 inches.
Well, as ksdb seems to have demonstrated, using other known COLBs, Hawaii obviously went from a larger seal to a smaller seal sometime after DeCosta.
I did a comparison between the KOS version and the Factcheck version and noticed that there are more white/light coloured artifacts around the text in the Factcheck version – even though we would normally expect to see a further-compressed version like KOS’s having more.
It wasn’t a thorough comparison, but it might be worth following up.
What I did was put a small section of identical text together on the one document and then select the lightest coloured pixels I could find (with the magic wand set as 2) and then change their colour to red. This was repeated many times, but the Factcheck version always had more RED pixels.
Ok, I went ahead and followed up. I took the FactCheck image and cycled it through a number of JPEG exports.
Here’s the result: test.jpg
The trend seems to be that the green starts closing in around the letters, reducing the lighter pixels around them, and tends to get expelled from between the letters.
The bottom image is of the original. You can see that there’s a good amount of green between the S’s. But on the top image, the green is virtually gone, just as it is in the Kos image.
So I’m pretty confident that the Kos image ended up the way it did from cropping it from the original and saving it out again as a JEPEG at a rather low quality level.
k
July 19, 2008 at 12:46 am
rayinaus
That compression is interesting but we still don’t know why the (let’s call it) “1st generation Factcheck image” has more white pixels than the 2nd generation Kos image which is 0.5MB smaller after cropping is allowed for.
July 19, 2008 at 8:59 am
koyaan
rayinaus
That compression is interesting but we still don’t know why the (let’s call it) “1st generation Factcheck image” has more white pixels than the 2nd generation Kos image which is 0.5MB smaller after cropping is allowed for.
I don’t know. But I think we’ve been letting ourselves get a bit too obsessed over pixels.
FactCheck says they posted it just as they received it from the Obama campaign and I’ve no reason to believe otherwise.
On the other hand, there’s no question that Kos has fiddled with the image they received.
So to that end, I think the FactCheck image should be the reference image.
k
July 19, 2008 at 9:09 am
rayinaus
I agree that the Factcheck image should be used. It is however an interesting question (from a general perspective) why an earlier version of a jpg should have more contrasty pixels.
July 19, 2008 at 10:01 am
rayinaus
I’ve been wondering what’s going to happen with all this forgery nonsense when someone posts a 2007 COLB on the net that shows that the Obama forgery team didn’t take a blank certificate and construct a fake border.
What’s left to work with – Polarik’s artifacts around the text — which you partly demolished yesterday when you pointed out his contradiction about the headings above the “new” text.
What about “discovering” that a full point after “Certificate No” is actually Helvetica and NOT Arial? Or what about running a picture of Obama himself and discovering with the Photoshop “Info”panel that his pixels are way too brown for him to be President anyway?
July 19, 2008 at 11:41 am
elliewyatt
I am ‘El” from TD site.
Re: your comment above: “Claim: The embossed seal size on the Obama COLB is smaller than the embossed seal on the Michele COLB.”
No such claim was made. I said that OB seal is smaller than DeCosta. I lined up the basket weave and you can see it here: http://s283.photobucket.com/albums/kk287/Elliewyatt/?action=view¤t=sealslinedup.jpg
Re: Your comment: “It’s not a very good image for comparative purposes as the Obama seal is not only offset from the reference seals…” I addressed that very issue when I posted the OB/Michele image. I stated that I had LINED UP THE BASKET WEAVE PATTERN in order to accurately compare actual size. The weave pattern gives SCALE.
Re: Your comment: “… the panel with the Obama seal actually cuts off a portion of the bottom of the seal, though this isn’t immediately obvious.” No, it doesn’t . What is shown is the entirety of any discernable OB seal. The seal image itself shows nothing more. I did not crop any portion of the seal. If you find an image with the bottom of the seal discernable, I’d like to see it.
Re: Your comment: “El seems to feel that the embossed seal on the Obama COLB is smaller than that of the Michele COLB.” I quite clearly said, “I can’t tell…. I’m not sure”
Following is my original post on TD regarding the issue:
_________________
“In the image here, I have lined up the basket-weave patterns on Michele’s (on both sides) with Obama’s, for accurate size scale. They are not lined up vertically, because of needing to match the weave pattern. http://s283.photobucket.com/albums/kk287/Elliewyatt/?action=view¤t=3seals.jpg
Are they the same size? OB’s appears smaller to me, but I’m not sure. It was quite obvious with DeCosta’s, but I can’t tell here.”
__________________
Koyaan, I use the basket weave for ME to have a size scale for MYSAELF so that I feel I am being as accurate as possible. I am not attempting to assert anything or convince anyone of anything. I have no opinion as to the legitimacy (or lack-of) of the OB cert.
I do not see this as a war- I have no “side” to take. While I do not support Obama, I seek TRUTH and accuracy, as best we can come up with it. For example, I posted this on TD last night:
___________________
“I noticed that the alignment of the diamond shapes on the side borders of BO’s cert are not the same. The diamonds on the left border are centered, but the pattern on the right border was shifted off-center to the left. So I traced the lines and colored them.
Then I did the same on Michele’s. Her cert has the same off-center shift on the right border.
Graphic here: http://s283.photobucket.com/albums/kk287/Elliewyatt/?action=view¤t=bordersredgreen.jpg ”
____________________
You may be interested in ksdb’s comment here:
_________________
“El, I went ahead and mocked up all the seals by doing what I described. I’ve labeled the seal for each certificate. Had to adjust curves on a couple of these so the seal would stand out and I had to use the find edge filter on BO’s certificate. I added red lines at the top and bottom edges of the larger seals so you can see that the other seals are smaller in comparison (although BO’s is the least distinct). It’s not exact, but it should be close so you can tell the difference. Also, notice that the outer border is different and that there’s an inner circle that seems more prominent on the smaller seals. You may have to zoom in to see the red lines. Hope this helps:
http://www.americandebtsales.com/pics/seals.jpg”
_________________
And my response:
(note that my response is under the name of ‘elliewyatt’, because I somehow needed to make a new name to post on this blog. I will have to indicate that on TD when my post is out of the Moderation box at TD and try to revert to El on both blogs)
_________________
“elliewyatt // July 19, 2008 at 2:30 pm
ksdb~
Thank you for that work. I think it is excellent.
I think at least ’seal size issue’ can be put to rest.”
________________
To rayinaus~
You are incorrect. The seal size as of 2005 is 2-1/4″, not 2-1/2″. http://hawaii.gov/health/about/rules/prac_proc.pdf
~El
July 19, 2008 at 12:13 pm
rayinaus
Yes, I knew it was 2.25 inches but typed the wrong number. Thanks.
July 19, 2008 at 12:20 pm
rayinaus
Here are the links for two experts who have assessed the Obama COLB:
[EXPERT 1]
http://xenon.arcticus.com/barack-obama-birth-certificate-image-tampering-analysis
[EXPERT 2]
http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/202-The-Birth-of-a-Conspiracy.html&serendipity%5Bcsuccess%5D=true#feedback
July 19, 2008 at 12:45 pm
rayinaus
Polarik asked on the racist blog:
“How exactly does one reproduce a COLB with jet black letters, jet black seal, white text on jet black bars, on top and bottom, but the BEST that we can see on the BHO’s borders are dark gray lines that are not even consistently colored!”
Will we tell him or let him keep digging a bigger hole?
July 19, 2008 at 2:20 pm
koyaan
elliewyatt wrote:
Re: your comment above: “Claim: The embossed seal size on the Obama COLB is smaller than the embossed seal on the Michele COLB.”
No such claim was made. I said that OB seal is smaller than DeCosta. I lined up the basket weave and you can see it here:
You are correct. No one that I’m aware of has made a declarative statement that the Obama seal was smaller.
When I began this post, I was intending to do it more as a hypothetical, with no particular attribution. I was looking to structure it as “Claim:” “Analysis:” and “Verdict:”.
I wrote the “Claim:” sentence, and then went to work on doing the images for the analysis. While I was doing that, I thought I’d relate the analysis part to what you had said over on TexasDarlin.
I didn’t stop to think how that might look with the “Claim:” sentence sitting above it.
My apologies. I never intended to imply that any particular individual had declaratively stated that the seal was smaller.
Re: Your comment: “It’s not a very good image for comparative purposes as the Obama seal is not only offset from the reference seals…” I addressed that very issue when I posted the OB/Michele image. I stated that I had LINED UP THE BASKET WEAVE PATTERN in order to accurately compare actual size. The weave pattern gives SCALE.
Yes, I know you lined up the weave patterns to show that the images were of the same scale. But my point was that by having the one seal offset from the others it makes it difficult for a visual comparison of the size of the seals themselves, which was the object of the comparison.
Re: Your comment: “… the panel with the Obama seal actually cuts off a portion of the bottom of the seal, though this isn’t immediately obvious.” No, it doesn’t . What is shown is the entirety of any discernable OB seal. The seal image itself shows nothing more. I did not crop any portion of the seal. If you find an image with the bottom of the seal discernable, I’d like to see it.
No, it doesn’t cut off what’s discernable of the Obama seal. But my point was that it cut off the portion where the seal actually would have been if that part had been discernable in the Obama image. And as with it being offset, this makes visual comparison more difficult.
Re: Your comment: “El seems to feel that the embossed seal on the Obama COLB is smaller than that of the Michele COLB.” I quite clearly said, “I can’t tell…. I’m not sure”
Following is my original post on TD regarding the issue:
Yes, I read that. But my subjective impression that you felt the Obama seal was smaller came from the subsequent exchange between you and Old Atlantic.
Old Atlantic said it looked smaller to him too.
You thanked him and started speculating as to where a smaller seal had come from.
As I said in my un-posted reply to you on TexasDarling and as I repeat in a separate post here, I specifically chose the word “seemed” to convey that I was only giving my subjective impression as to what you felt.
And again, if you took it the wrong way, I apologize.
Koyaan, I use the basket weave for ME to have a size scale for MYSAELF so that I feel I am being as accurate as possible.
Oh no, I understand your reasons here perfectly and have no problem with them at all. I was simply pointing out that the end result made it more difficult to visually assess the relative sizes of the seals.
I am not attempting to assert anything or convince anyone of anything. I have no opinion as to the legitimacy (or lack-of) of the OB cert.
Don’t worry. I believe you and never thought otherwise. And my critique of your images was never intended to imply any thing of the sort.
I do not see this as a war- I have no “side” to take.
Nor do I. However there are those who very much do and have. So let’s not let the rather poisonous atmosphere created by that cause us to accidentally clobber each other like the old Hollywood saloon/bar fight cliche.
While I do not support Obama, I seek TRUTH and accuracy, as best we can come up with it.
Then our goals are the same.
For example, I posted this on TD last night:
Yes, I saw that. And you don’t have to prove anything. I don’t recall having seen anything from you that would cause me to question your motives.
You may be interested in ksdb’s comment here:
Yes, thanks. I saw that as well.
I think at least ’seal size issue’ can be put to rest.”
Hmmmm. Can we? I’m not so sure.
You also said this:
According to 2005 Hawaii Administrative Rules Title 11, Department of Health – Rules of Practice and Procedure – section 11-1-2: a) The official seal of the department of health shall be circular in shape, TWO AND ONE-FOURTH INCHES IN DIAMETER.
Not sure if anyone’s mentioned it, but NONE of the seals have been 2-1/4″.
The Tomayasu and DeCosta seals are 1-3/4″ and the Smith, Michele and Obama seals are 1-9/16″.
k
July 19, 2008 at 2:31 pm
koyaan
Polarik asked on the racist blog:
Can we rise above this, Ray, and just name the blog?
“How exactly does one reproduce a COLB with jet black letters, jet black seal, white text on jet black bars, on top and bottom, but the BEST that we can see on the BHO’s borders are dark gray lines that are not even consistently colored!”
Will we tell him or let him keep digging a bigger hole?
Earlier today I started a post called Border Patrol. Didn’t really get past the title as I wanted to cover something that hadn’t been discussed already. I’ll use Polarik’s question to start things off. Hold off on any border discussions here and keep an eye out for the new post.
Edit: I’ve decided to change the title to Border Line Personality Disorder.
k
July 19, 2008 at 2:39 pm
rayinaus
Polarik asked on the racist blog:
“Can we rise above this, Ray, and just name the blog?”
No.
July 19, 2008 at 3:31 pm
elliewyatt
Koyaan says: “The Tomayasu and DeCosta seals are 1-3/4″ and the Smith, Michele and Obama seals are 1-9/16″”
I noticed that Ray mentioned this dimension. I haven’t looked at the issue. But if true, it seems to be a problem in that either (Michele / Obama)certificate could be challenged as being ‘official’ according to Hawaii State Practice and Procedure regulations.
I don’t know where that leaves us at this point, except that we are unable to prove or verify ANYTHING.
Question for Ray~ Why did you paste the Michele seal onto Obama’s cert?
July 19, 2008 at 3:36 pm
rayinaus
Just to see how much work was involved. No attempt was made to line it up accurately.
July 19, 2008 at 4:38 pm
koyaan
elliewyatt wrote:
Koyaan says: “The Tomayasu and DeCosta seals are 1-3/4″ and the Smith, Michele and Obama seals are 1-9/16″”
I noticed that Ray mentioned this dimension. I haven’t looked at the issue. But if true, it seems to be a problem in that either (Michele / Obama)certificate could be challenged as being ‘official’ according to Hawaii State Practice and Procedure regulations.
I don’t know where that leaves us at this point, except that we are unable to prove or verify ANYTHING.
Ok, I did a little more digging into this and think I have an answer.
Back up to Title 11, Chapter 1, Subchapter 1 (General Provisions):
(a) This chapter governs the practice and procedure before the department of health, State of Hawaii, provided that an attached entity may adopt and shall be governed by its own specific rules of practice and procedure if it has rulemaking authority, and provided that the director may adopt more specific rules of practice and procedure for any specific program, and those more specific rules shall govern the practice and procedure in proceedings of that program. Where such specific rules fail to cover particular practices and procedures, then these rules shall apply.
These certifications aren’t directly issued by the Department of Health. They’re issued by the Office of Health Status Monitoring (OHSM), which is an “attached entity,” and quite likely has its own rulemaking authority.
If that’s the case, then by my reading of the above, they would have the power to determine the size of the seal used on these certifications.
To confirm that, you’d want to look at the rules for practice and procedure of OHSM, not the Department of Health, which don’t seem to be available at the moment. OHSM is covered under Title 11, Chapter 117. And what I’ve been able to find online, they’re in the process of “Converting from Public Health Regulations Chapters 8, 8A, and 8B to Administrative Rules.”
k